Jonathan: The Yellow Light Sound, "What Is Inclusive and What
Jonathan: Is Not."
Jonathan: The Americans with Disabilities Act passed in 1990,
Jonathan: and 18 years later came some amendments.
Jonathan: It has now been 17 years since then.
Jonathan: Should we update our understanding of accessibility?
Jonathan: I'd like to talk about why I care
Jonathan: about this when I can walk and have
Jonathan: above-average sight and hearing.
Jonathan: I don't suffer from any physical disabilities.
Jonathan: Then I will explain how it hurts us
Jonathan: all when someone makes a bad faith defense
Jonathan: of people with disabilities.
Jonathan: First, I know that different people have different
Jonathan: attitudes on wording.
Jonathan: Some will casually throw around a word like
Jonathan: disability, and others will chafe.
Jonathan: They would prefer to hear "differently abled."
Jonathan: Others want to avoid any stigma.
Jonathan: They want to call a spade a spade,
Jonathan: and they do not want to hide from
Jonathan: the word "disability."
Jonathan: They're not ashamed of having low vision,
Jonathan: for example.
Jonathan: So, why do I care?
Jonathan: I don't care because I have some physical
Jonathan: challenge, and it's not because I'm close to
Jonathan: somebody with a challenge -- a spouse, a child.
Jonathan: I care because it's relatively small to care
Jonathan: about these things.
Jonathan: It doesn't cost a lot, and it is
Jonathan: such a game changer for people with certain
Jonathan: challenges.
Jonathan: It might be a little more expensive to
Jonathan: have a ramp for that three-inch step
Jonathan: up into the building, but you know, when
Jonathan: you're making the building from scratch, you can
Jonathan: afford that.
Jonathan: It's a small thing, but it's huge.
Jonathan: It makes all the difference.
Jonathan: Somebody can go from not being able to
Jonathan: enter your building to being able to enter
Jonathan: your building.
Jonathan: And this isn't just about the most visible
Jonathan: form of disability, the wheelchair.
Jonathan: We see the blue placard signs with the
Jonathan: stick figure and the wheelchair.
Jonathan: That's what we think.
Jonathan: That's the be all and end all of
Jonathan: disability.
Jonathan: Well, no.
Jonathan: A ramp can also be helpful to people
Jonathan: who have some motor difficulties.
Jonathan: Say, somebody can walk, but maybe not as
Jonathan: well, or maybe somebody is very old and
Jonathan: uses a cane.
Jonathan: I'm sure that person would prefer to have
Jonathan: a gradual step up, well, a gradual ramp
Jonathan: up, than to have an abrupt step that's
Jonathan: three or four inches off the ground.
Jonathan: So that's part of it.
Jonathan: The other thing, too, about why I care
Jonathan: is that there is the "curb cut effect."
Jonathan: Now, the curb cut effect is named after,
Jonathan: well, literally that --
Jonathan: curb cuts.
Jonathan: It used to be that in cities when
Jonathan: you had sidewalks, when the sidewalks met the
Jonathan: roadway, when they met the street, there would
Jonathan: be a sudden dropoff.
Jonathan: There wasn't a ramp on or off of
Jonathan: it.
Jonathan: That was the norm.
Jonathan: And if you have limited mobility, that's intolerable.
Jonathan: You can't get around if that's the case.
Jonathan: So how about we have ramps at intersections
Jonathan: now?
Jonathan: Well, by the time I was born and
Jonathan: I grew up, those were quite commonplace.
Jonathan: I could see the advantages in those.
Jonathan: I didn't know why they were there, originally.
Jonathan: I just thought, "Oh, it's kind of nice,
Jonathan: especially if you have a dog and you're
Jonathan: trying to get something heavy.
Jonathan: Well, they got a little ramp up."
Jonathan: There has to be a ramp somewhere to
Jonathan: get on the sidewalk.
Jonathan: It's great.
Jonathan: Also, by the time I came of age,
Jonathan: it was very common to see those bumps,
Jonathan: those things they would put at live intersections.
Jonathan: You would see these bumps all over.
Jonathan: Sometimes they'd be brightly colored, sometimes not.
Jonathan: But there'd always be these bumps that had
Jonathan: a different texture from the rest of the
Jonathan: road.
Jonathan: I thought, oh, well, this is nice.
Jonathan: So when it's very rainy or icy, if
Jonathan: you're in that type of climate, well, the
Jonathan: ramp is no longer a danger because now
Jonathan: you've got these better grips for you.
Jonathan: I was in my 30s, I think, when
Jonathan: somebody explained, no, no, no, no.
Jonathan: Those bumps aren't there for, well, they are
Jonathan: there for safety reasons, but they're originally put
Jonathan: there so that people who have low vision
Jonathan: can tell when the sidewalk ends, where the
Jonathan: intersection starts.
Jonathan: They can feel their cane, they can feel
Jonathan: their feet, they know, oh, this is the
Jonathan: end of the sidewalk.
Jonathan: If I take another step, I will be
Jonathan: on the blacktop instead of the cement sidewalk.
Jonathan: That's their curb cut effect.
Jonathan: It helps us all, even if we don't
Jonathan: realize that it was originally for other people,
Jonathan: had other people in mind.
Jonathan: This was a huge game changer for certain
Jonathan: groups, but everybody benefited.
Jonathan: Nobody says, "Oh, I wish they did not
Jonathan: have these bumps."
Jonathan: Nobody really says that.
Jonathan: Maybe if you want to count the money,
Jonathan: but it's so small, it's a drop in
Jonathan: the bucket.
Jonathan: Curb cuts, those are great.
Jonathan: I don't want to be a part of
Jonathan: making the world more unwelcoming.
Jonathan: It's already the case that people who have
Jonathan: certain challenges are going to struggle with many
Jonathan: things.
Jonathan: If you go to the typical movie theater,
Jonathan: it probably will not have subtitles.
Jonathan: If you're hard of hearing or completely deaf,
Jonathan: that's huge.
Jonathan: You will not have the same experience going
Jonathan: out to the movie theaters with your friends.
Jonathan: Now, people may say, "Oh, there are special
Jonathan: theaters here and there or special screenings that
Jonathan: have subtitles," but it's not there by default.
Jonathan: It's not there everywhere.
Jonathan: If you have the resources to put up
Jonathan: subtitles or have sign language interpreters at a
Jonathan: live event, then have that.
Jonathan: It always was great to me how in
Jonathan: Korean political debates, there would be a live
Jonathan: interpreter.
Jonathan: And that's even better than closed captioning because
Jonathan: Newsflash, nobody wants to read nonstop.
Jonathan: It doesn't matter if you have normal hearing
Jonathan: or not.
Jonathan: You don't want to just read that nonstop.
Jonathan: It's also not the way you communicate with
Jonathan: people.
Jonathan: It's just, it's almost like a different language.
Jonathan: Well, it's not just, it is.
Jonathan: The syntax, the grammar of American sign language
Jonathan: is different from other sign languages, even if
Jonathan: those are Anglophone countries.
Jonathan: Sign language is its own thing.
Jonathan: And when you have a little bubble in
Jonathan: the corner, and we can do that now
Jonathan: with HDTV quite easily.
Jonathan: You can send somebody a live feed, a
Jonathan: camera, somebody who's doing live sign language interpretation
Jonathan: of what people say.
Jonathan: That's really great.
Jonathan: And while I'm on the topic of Korean
Jonathan: TV, something that I appreciate as somebody who's
Jonathan: much better at reading Korean than hearing Korean
Jonathan: is that it's standard to have subtitles, captioning --
Jonathan: whatever you want to say.
Jonathan: There is a text form whenever somebody's speaking
Jonathan: on the news.
Jonathan: It's just standard.
Jonathan: An interview, an announcer, you're going to have
Jonathan: subtitles for many things.
Jonathan: It makes it more accessible,
Jonathan: something that makes a huge difference.
Jonathan: When you're able to be aware of what's
Jonathan: going on around you, when you're able to
Jonathan: stay up to date on various events, you
Jonathan: can participate in society.
Jonathan: I was not a citizen, so I didn't
Jonathan: have, for example, as you would see in
Jonathan: the USA, jury duty.
Jonathan: But when you have trials without sign language
Jonathan: interpretation, "Oh, whatever, you're hard of hearing, you're
Jonathan: excused, you don't have to serve."
Jonathan: Well, sometimes you do want to serve, or
Jonathan: maybe you'd like to have somebody wonder, "Oh,
Jonathan: maybe he or she will be on the
Jonathan: jury."
Jonathan: It's nice to feel part of society, not
Jonathan: a special charity case all the time.
Jonathan: Why can't we do that in more places?
Jonathan: You know, just the courthouse itself, I mentioned
Jonathan: sign language, but you could also have ramps.
Jonathan: And I don't mean ramps that you put
Jonathan: off to the side, oh, well, technically there's
Jonathan: also a ramp here, it's where we get
Jonathan: deliveries, and also people who use wheelchairs can
Jonathan: use that.
Jonathan: No.
Jonathan: Why does the front have to be such
Jonathan: that it tells anybody with physical challenges, you're
Jonathan: not welcome here?
Jonathan: It's not for nothing that as a result
Jonathan: of civil rights movements, we no longer had
Jonathan: segregated water fountains or entrances.
Jonathan: That's a thing in a lot of old
Jonathan: houses, not just racially, but class-wise too.
Jonathan: "Oh, that's where the help comes, that's for
Jonathan: the help, that entrance, that exit, that back
Jonathan: side entrance, the nice regal front entrance, that's
Jonathan: for the well-to-do."
Jonathan: That's why I care.
Jonathan: Now what do I do?
Jonathan: I make a decision every time I produce
Jonathan: content to have transcripts for the audio content
Jonathan: and to have audio voiceovers for the essays.
Jonathan: I don't want to make the content just
Jonathan: for one audience.
Jonathan: People might say, "Oh, it's just a minority,
Jonathan: who cares. It's just a small thing."
Jonathan: And yeah, maybe it is, but as I've
Jonathan: said, they have a lot of other things
Jonathan: in life that are hard.
Jonathan: I don't want to add to that inconvenience.
Jonathan: Why should I?
Jonathan: And we don't have to think about disabilities
Jonathan: as a total binary.
Jonathan: "Oh, you're completely blind or you can see
Jonathan: perfectly without eyeglasses."
Jonathan: "Oh, you can hear perfectly or you're deaf
Jonathan: as a post."
Jonathan: No, there is a line in between.
Jonathan: And we also have people who learn languages.
Jonathan: Korea was a lot more accessible to me
Jonathan: because of all the subtitling everywhere.
Jonathan: If somebody is not a native speaker of
Jonathan: English, yeah, maybe that person can catch 80%
Jonathan: of an audio broadcast.
Jonathan: But if there are subtitles to read along,
Jonathan: maybe that person will get 98%.
Jonathan: You know, if you can do the subtitles,
Jonathan: if you can do the transcripts, then why
Jonathan: not?
Jonathan: The excuse for not doing it is going
Jonathan: away very quickly as we see these advancements
Jonathan: in chatbots or LLMs or generative AI, whatever
Jonathan: you want to call it.
Jonathan: I actually wish AI had gone more in
Jonathan: that direction.
Jonathan: Unfortunately, the money is going towards plagiarizing art,
Jonathan: plagiarizing written work, giving confident but false information,
Jonathan: or doing things that will make it feasible
Jonathan: for you to fire your secretary.
Jonathan: That's what AI is doing now.
Jonathan: There's not as much money in subtitling, live
Jonathan: transcriptions, etc., but it's good enough for a
Jonathan: lot of purposes.
Jonathan: I see, unfortunately, an abuse of AI.
Jonathan: Well, there's a big one with NaNoWriMo.
Jonathan: NaNoWriMo is National Novel Writing Month.
Jonathan: Every November, this organization puts on a Novel
Jonathan: Writing Month.
Jonathan: I don't want to go over all the
Jonathan: details, but suffice it to say, this organization,
Jonathan: as of April 2025, is shutting down.
Jonathan: Its most recent contest last fall had this
Jonathan: controversial inclusion of AI or promotion of AI,
Jonathan: whatever you want to say.
Jonathan: The organization was okay with having more AI
Jonathan: in the generation of content.
Jonathan: If you know about AI and how it
Jonathan: works, you will know that it trains itself
Jonathan: by looking at existing material.
Jonathan: That has its own ethical issues, of course,
Jonathan: but what was really strange was NaNoWriMo justified
Jonathan: its position by saying, "Oh, you don't want
Jonathan: to be classist or ableist and be anti-AI.
Jonathan: Well, is the implication here that you need
Jonathan: AI to write for you because if you
Jonathan: are blind, you can't write well, you can't
Jonathan: come up with good stories, you don't feel
Jonathan: human emotions?
Jonathan: I don't know what they were thinking because
Jonathan: that was -- it was bizarre.
Jonathan: I don't know if they're trying to do
Jonathan: damage control or what, but it did not
Jonathan: go over well.
Jonathan: It was not surprising that the organization folded
Jonathan: a few months later.
Jonathan: It's in the process as of this recording
Jonathan: to go away.
Jonathan: Now if we were talking about AI tools
Jonathan: being allowed in the contest of, oh, this
Jonathan: is helping people who maybe don't have the
Jonathan: same mobility with their hands, they don't have
Jonathan: dexterous, had a hand amputated, maybe they are
Jonathan: low vision and they would like to be
Jonathan: able to talk to the computer, you know,
Jonathan: the feature is now, why can't we do
Jonathan: that?
Jonathan: Well, for a lot of things, we can
Jonathan: just talk to the computer, have the computer
Jonathan: dictate back to you.
Jonathan: That would have been great, but that wasn't
Jonathan: really what the controversy was about.
Jonathan: It was about AI in general, which unfortunately
Jonathan: at this point is probably more bad than
Jonathan: good for the creative arts.
Jonathan: Now that struck me as a bad-faith
Jonathan: argument.
Jonathan: It was maybe a cost-cutting measure, but
Jonathan: it was something that the people who run
Jonathan: NaNoWriMo wanted to do.
Jonathan: They just wanted to do it anyway.
Jonathan: And then when they got pushback, there's
Jonathan: the accusation that, oh, if you're against this,
Jonathan: you're being ableist, you're being classist, you're doing
Jonathan: XYZ.
Jonathan: It's really co-opting the language of the
Jonathan: social justice movements, but that's not the only
Jonathan: time we hear bad faith arguments.
Jonathan: That's like disabilities or people with disabilities, or
Jonathan: if they really want to sound progressive, they
Jonathan: might use other terminology.
Jonathan: The pattern is the same.
Jonathan: You see or you hear an organization using
Jonathan: language that sounds progressive and is trying to
Jonathan: shame critics by saying, "Oh, they're not progressive;
Jonathan: they're heartless, this, that, the other thing,"
Jonathan: when really they have ulterior motives. I don't
Jonathan: know what the exact goal was for NaNoWriMo.
Jonathan: So, I'm just talking about what seemed to
Jonathan: be the case.
Jonathan: It seemed as if NaNoWriMo wanted to incorporate
Jonathan: some AI tools or give them a blessing.
Jonathan: And then after the fact, after the pushback
Jonathan: said, "Oh, it's about accessibility." Well, we see
Jonathan: the same thing with the way we design
Jonathan: roads, the way we design streets, the way
Jonathan: we design the built environment, the shops you
Jonathan: go to, all of that.
Jonathan: People may say, "Oh, well, you know, not
Jonathan: everybody can walk, not everybody can ride a
Jonathan: bike.
Jonathan: So, it's more accessible to make everything
Jonathan: car-dependent."
Jonathan: Now, that's clearly from somebody who's just not
Jonathan: familiar with somebody who uses a wheelchair.
Jonathan: Yes, there are custom minivans and yes, for
Jonathan: a lot of long distance trips in many
Jonathan: parts of North America, it's more feasible to
Jonathan: get a specially modified van and have an
Jonathan: elevator or hand controls, whatever it takes and
Jonathan: use that because there may not be a
Jonathan: train from Montana to Minnesota that you can
Jonathan: ride.
Jonathan: I get that.
Jonathan: But for ordinary life, having more cars, more
Jonathan: car dependency does not help much.
Jonathan: The custom van that you need to run
Jonathan: every single errand.
Jonathan: Well, when everything's really far apart in your
Jonathan: town, you're going to have to get in
Jonathan: that van for every errand -- post office, bank,
Jonathan: corner store -- everything.
Jonathan: And when you have more car dependency, you've
Jonathan: got everybody driving more, and everybody's competing for
Jonathan: the parking spaces.
Jonathan: Let me be clear.
Jonathan: When I'm talking about getting rid of car
Jonathan: dependency, I'm not talking about banning cars.
Jonathan: I'm talking about making it so that not
Jonathan: everybody has to drive for every single thing.
Jonathan: This will free up space for people who
Jonathan: do need cars.
Jonathan: Many of us cannot drive safely or choose
Jonathan: not to drive or can't afford a car
Jonathan: or want to not have a car for
Jonathan: any reason at all --
Jonathan: it doesn't matter.
Jonathan: I don't have a pilot's license.
Jonathan: I do have a driver's license for a
Jonathan: car, but it would be kind of silly
Jonathan: to expect me to learn how to fly
Jonathan: a helicopter and to use that to run
Jonathan: all my errands.
Jonathan: What makes the car so different?
Jonathan: I really don't see how it helps when
Jonathan: you separate the businesses, when every store at
Jonathan: a strip mall is so far apart that
Jonathan: it's like a 200-foot walk from one store
Jonathan: to the next.
Jonathan: You're telling people, "Oh, OK, walk across this
Jonathan: hot blacktop in the sun."
Jonathan: If somebody uses a wheelchair or uses a
Jonathan: cane and goes a bit slower, then that
Jonathan: person is going to spend more time going
Jonathan: through a hot parking lot that may feel
Jonathan: like a frying pan in the middle of
Jonathan: summer.
Jonathan: If you have more cars, more parking, more
Jonathan: dependency on cars, you have less space for
Jonathan: sidewalks.
Jonathan: And if you have thin sidewalks and you
Jonathan: use a wheelchair, you might be in a
Jonathan: lot of trouble if somebody backs up a
Jonathan: pickup truck so that the back of the
Jonathan: pickup truck extends over the sidewalk and the
Jonathan: person left the tow hitch in.
Jonathan: So, now the pickup truck hangs over, and
Jonathan: it's got a little ball sticking out.
Jonathan: Well, if you use a wheelchair and when
Jonathan: you use it, it's three feet wide.
Jonathan: But now this five foot sidewalk is only
Jonathan: two and a half feet wide because of
Jonathan: this pickup truck overhang.
Jonathan: You -- you can't get by.
Jonathan: So people say, "Oh, just go on the
Jonathan: grass," or whatever.
Jonathan: Well, not everybody can.
Jonathan: Not everybody can do so safely.
Jonathan: And why should people have to inconvenience themselves
Jonathan: like that?
Jonathan: It's so backward, really saying this in bad
Jonathan: faith.
Jonathan: They're making a bad-faith argument to justify
Jonathan: keeping things the way they are because they
Jonathan: like to drive everywhere or they think it's
Jonathan: the only way to do anything.
Jonathan: And they're very resistant to change.
Jonathan: And then later, after the fact, they cite
Jonathan: disabilities.
Jonathan: But when we're on the topic of disabilities,
Jonathan: let's keep in mind that most disabilities or
Jonathan: as I say, most people who have some
Jonathan: form of disability will have more trouble driving
Jonathan: than with walking.
Jonathan: As I said earlier, the ADA logo is
Jonathan: that blue and white symbol -- blue background, white
Jonathan: stick figure on a wheelchair.
Jonathan: Well, there are other disabilities, too, that make
Jonathan: it so that you can never drive.
Jonathan: You just you just can't drive.
Jonathan: But you can walk even if it's not
Jonathan: bike ride, even if it's not taking an
Jonathan: e-bike, which would solve a lot of
Jonathan: problems for mobility.
Jonathan: But let's just say those don't exist.
Jonathan: You can still be blind and walk.
Jonathan: You could still be low vision and walk.
Jonathan: You could be old, struggling with Alzheimer's and
Jonathan: still walk.
Jonathan: You could be very young and walk.
Jonathan: You could be somebody who has narcolepsy and
Jonathan: still walk.
Jonathan: A car might be a little different.
Jonathan: Maybe you can, but maybe it's more uncomfortable
Jonathan: for you.
Jonathan: The point is, there are so many more
Jonathan: disabilities that make it infeasible to drive, but
Jonathan: still let you walk or ride a bike.
Jonathan: A person I admire who has spoken on
Jonathan: this topic is Anna Zivarts.
Jonathan: She is in Washington State,
Jonathan: a place where she has to confront the
Jonathan: challenges of not driving.
Jonathan: A book she's talked about is "When Driving
Jonathan: Is Not an Option."
Jonathan: She, after many years, now says she's openly
Jonathan: disabled because of nystagmus.
Jonathan: She has a condition which makes it so
Jonathan: that her eyes move involuntarily ever so slightly.
Jonathan: It makes her vision blurry.
Jonathan: And it makes it so that she can't
Jonathan: perceive depth in the same way.
Jonathan: She just cannot drive.
Jonathan: She knows that she would be a danger
Jonathan: to herself and others.
Jonathan: She had tried once and realized, thankfully, before
Jonathan: anybody got hurt, that it just wasn't feasible
Jonathan: for her.
Jonathan: She was somebody who would try to hide
Jonathan: or, let's say, make her condition not an
Jonathan: overriding feature.
Jonathan: But she has said that she now carries
Jonathan: her bright white cane around more often.
Jonathan: She finds people who are more helpful when
Jonathan: she's able to, quote, "look more disabled and in
need of help."
Jonathan: But she shouldn't have to.
Jonathan: Not every disability is immediately visible to everybody.
Jonathan: She doesn't have tinted sunglasses.
Jonathan: She's not blind.
Jonathan: She's low vision.
Jonathan: There's a difference.
Jonathan: It's a difference that's enough to make it
Jonathan: so that she can walk.
Jonathan: She can ride a bike.
Jonathan: Can she drive a pickup truck?
Jonathan: No.
Jonathan: But that shouldn't be a qualification to participate
Jonathan: in society.
Jonathan: And she represents, I could say, maybe the
Jonathan: majority of people who can't drive because the
Jonathan: greatest number of people who have challenges that
Jonathan: make them unable to drive are still able
Jonathan: to walk.
Jonathan: The last thing I wanted to talk about
Jonathan: was the bad-faith arguments on
Jonathan: physical health.
Jonathan: To be blunt, fatness, obesity.
Jonathan: Am I being unfair by demanding that everybody
Jonathan: walk?
Jonathan: Well, I'm not demanding much other than a
Jonathan: more equitable place to live.
Jonathan: And if we have things closer together and
Jonathan: fewer cars and fewer parking spaces separating the
Jonathan: buildings, it's not as far to walk.
Jonathan: So the idea that people would be expected
Jonathan: to jog five miles to work is kind
Jonathan: of silly.
Jonathan: I'm not advocating that.
Jonathan: I don't think anybody advocates that.
Jonathan: Maybe bike five miles to work, but I'm
Jonathan: not expecting people to start jogging everywhere across
Jonathan: empty cityscapes where the cars used to roll.
Jonathan: No, no, nothing like that.
Jonathan: But the thing about weight that gets brought
Jonathan: up reminds me of a bad-faith argument
Jonathan: that Raj Patel brought up in his book
Jonathan: "Stuffed and Starved."
Jonathan: I haven't read the original version, but at
Jonathan: least in the second edition, in 2012, he
Jonathan: had warned, or maybe he saw the early
Jonathan: stages of this, or maybe he just saw
Jonathan: where things were going to go and he's
Jonathan: a bit of a prophet.
Jonathan: But he has said that the sugar industry
Jonathan: and the fast food industry would say that
Jonathan: opposition to fatty foods, promotion of physical fitness,
Jonathan: promotion of healthier eating habits is racist or
Jonathan: classist, which, you know, right off the bat,
Jonathan: OK, so is the implication that being physically
Jonathan: fit is the superpower of the majority in
Jonathan: America, the majority race?
Jonathan: What's the implication here?
Jonathan: So, there's that.
Jonathan: But, you know, we can hear that today.
Jonathan: It's been a few years since then.
Jonathan: And I wouldn't be the first person to
Jonathan: say the word "fatphobic."
Jonathan: I'm not suggesting we go back to bullying,
Jonathan: ridiculing people.
Jonathan: But why should we accommodate and encourage bad
Jonathan: habits just because somebody said, "Oh, well, you
Jonathan: know, if you're against eating McDonald's three times
Jonathan: a day, you're bigoted in some way."
Jonathan: It's not bigotry.
Jonathan: That's not it at all.
Jonathan: That's a bad-faith argument.
Jonathan: And we should remember that and not be
Jonathan: cowed into silence.
Jonathan: Think about what you advocate.
Jonathan: Will it make the world more accessible to
Jonathan: people or more exclusive?
Jonathan: Will it make life more pleasant or will
Jonathan: it just continue things as they are?
Jonathan: Are we just going to look at accessibility
Jonathan: as something to check off on a checklist,
Jonathan: or do we want to incorporate that into
Jonathan: our thinking?
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